Herbert and Zelmyra Fisher have an extraordinary story to tell. They’ve been married for 86 years. Together, they endured the Great Depression, World War II, the Korean War, Cuban Missile Crisis and Vietnam, they have seen the impact of the Civil Rights Movement, watched man land on…
Unpopular opinion that will piss most of you off: I am pro-choice all the way but I do disagree that only the woman has a say. Yes, the ultimate decision should be in her hands - it is her body. However, in cases that involve consensual sex, I believe the sperm source should be notified. What if he is perfectly willing to care for the child without any assistance at all from the mother? Would she not consider basically being a surrogate? What if her reasons for aborting were solely financial but he offers to support the child? What if he has an infertile sister dying to have a child? It’s her body but she didn’t get pregnant all by herself. It’s half and half and I think his voice should be heard. Now, before you jump all over me, realize that I said the final decision should be that of the woman…conception is half and half but gestation is not, after all. Furthermore, I understand that this isn’t a exactly a feasible option and the lawsuits trying to block abortions out of pure spite (or force for that matter) would quickly crush my little dream scenario. It just occurs to me that if women can demand child support after the child is born, should the man not have some say prior to birth as well? It isn’t fair to have it both ways.
Should probably prepare to be blasted for this…
I’m not going to blast you, but I am going to point out the inherent flaw in suggesting that monetary child support (which is usually not enough money to pay for half the child’s care for the record) is remotely equal to any form of surrogate pregnancy. In a post about bodily autonomy for women I’m more than a little horrified that you advocate that women should be willing to put themselves through an unwanted pregnancy to satisfy someone else’s desire to have a child.
Are you implying that surrogacy itself is wrong? My assumption in the scenario I described was that the woman had no objection to carrying the fetus to term but was aborting because she either could not handle (in her opinion, not anyone else’s) or did want to have the responsibility of motherhood after the child was born. I tried to make it clear that I in no way considered the potential father to have equal say in the decision and I certainly think it would be a legal nightmare if that were the case.
Surrogacy with someone who chooses to be a surrogate isn’t wrong. But saying that a woman who wants to abort should consider acting as a surrogate instead because her partner (who might well change his mind when the child is real and not just a notion), doesn’t want her to make that decision strikes me as incredibly shortsighted. You’re ignoring the reality of pregnancy, the weight of social mores surrounding mothers and children, as well as standing law in America pertaining to child custody. Mom can’t just walk away from the child after birth unless she signs custody over to someone else. She can’t surrender her rights unless there is someone (other than the father) to assume them. Even if they work out an arrangement outside the court there is nothing to stop him from pursuing her for that aforementioned child support. And then there’s the emotional consequences for the kid who has to grow up without their other parent despite that parent being alive, well, and simply uninterested in parenting them.
I will admit that I did not realize that the mother could not relinquish custody completely to the father even if the father was in agreement. However, I readily stated in my initial post that there were plenty of reasons my scenario wouldn’t work.
The social issues are something to be considered but by your logic, no mother should give up her child because it isn’t the accepted social norm…and therefore surrogacy in which the carrier of the fetus was the biological mother wouldn’t be proper. I think we can both agree that is pretty flawed because the whole point of this is that it’s a woman’s right to make the decisions about her body. Should she base her choice on what society deems correct or what she feels is correct? Providing a child to someone who desires to be a parent isn’t a bad thing…and it’s better done at birth than 10 years later!
The emotional effects on the child aren’t insignificant…but adoption and surrogacy are normal, healthy practices and your argument would imply that mothers who gave up their child at birth are always in the wrong. I can’t agree with that.
You seem to be imputing things about my logic that have never been stated and are not true. I am not a fan of adoption as a solution to an unwanted pregnancy because again there is more involved than simply pulling a bun out of an oven and handing it over. The very concept of surrogacy means that such arrangements leads to adoption by someone else. Neither of those scenarios automatically include an unwanted and unwelcome pregnancy, so they are entirely different than what you proposed. Your proposal would be seen as abandonment by the law, society, and quite probably the child. Women are not making their choices in a vacuum, and there is a vast difference socially between giving a child to someone else and simply walking away from them. There is societal support for adoption (though many adopted kids do feel abandoned, so even adoption is problematic) that there is not for handing your child over to the other parent and walking away. Your scenario is not just flawed, it is actively harmful to the discussion at hand and really if you don’t know these things you should probably learn about them before positing ideas that are inherently not pro choice while claiming to be such.
I was pretty happy being able to have this discussion and exchange of ideas…until you went and got bitchy and arrogant. Last I checked, pro-choice means…wait…what was it…ah, CHOICE. Not getting an abortion and choosing adoption instead is just as valid as any other choice. How dare you criticize me when you’re the one taking away that option? Again…what does option mean? That’s right! It means choice! A women should not be told she should have a medical procedure she doesn’t want (WHATEVER HER REASONS) just because you don’t like adoption.
So you break out the profanity & an ongoing refusal to listen to anything I’m actually saying but I’m the one taking this discussion the wrong way? Mmmkay, clearly I was having a battle of wits with the unarmed. My mistake. You go ahead and believe I said everyone should have an abortion instead of saying that women should be coerced into keeping an unwanted pregnancy because of societal pressures like the one you’re advocating. Easier for you to do that than examine why your logic wasn’t actually pro choice since that might require confronting why you think men should have any say over a woman’s body. Internalized misogyny is a hell of a drug.
“Carlos Santana took the microphone and said that he was representing all immigrants. Then Santana added, “The people of Arizona, and the people of Atlanta, Georgia, you should be ashamed of yourselves.” In a perfect display of Gov. Nathan Deal’s Georgia, the cheers quickly turned to boos. Yes, Carlos Santana was booed on Civil Rights Day in Atlanta for talking about Civil Rights. Then in the press box, Santana held an impromptu press conference where he let loose with an improvised speech to rival one of his virtuoso guitar solos. He said, “This law is not correct. It’s a cruel law, actually, This is about fear. Stop shucking and jiving. People are afraid we’re going to steal your job. No we aren’t. You’re not going to change sheets and clean toilets. I would invite all Latin people to do nothing for about two weeks so you can see who really, really is running the economy. Who cleans the sheets? Who cleans the toilets? Who babysits? I am here to give voice to the invisible.” He went on to say, “Most people at this point they are either afraid to really say what needs to be said, this is the United States the land of the free. If people want the immigration law to keep passing in every state then everybody should get out and just leave the American Indians here. This is about Civil Rights.”—
“You may not be her first, her last, or her only. She loved before she may love again. But if she loves you now, what else matters? She’s not perfect - you aren’t either, and the two of you may never be perfect together but if she can make you laugh, cause you to think twice, and admit to being human and making mistakes, hold onto her and give her the most you can. She may not be thinking about you every second of the day, but she will give you a part of her that she knows you can break - her heart. So don’t hurt her, don’t change her, don’t analyze and don’t expect more than she can give. Smile when she makes you happy, let her know when she makes you mad, and miss her when she’s not there.”—
“I was in seventh grade. It was a hot, humid day in Miami Beach. We had just finished phys ed, and I was in the boys locker room at school with all of my friends. I’m in my underwear, I’m changing into my pants, and I hear this voice calling my name. Adam, Aaaadaam. I’m thinking, Jesus, it can’t be. And she’s coming closer, and closer, and she walks into the boys locker room. She had my sweater in her hands, and she said it was going to rain today and I needed my sweater. You have to understand, as she was walking in, all the girls from their locker room came rushing out. The coach came out from his office. I think everyone who lived in South Florida at the time was in that locker room when she was standing there.”—
I really can't picture anyone having a crush on me. I can’t picture someone thinking about me before they fall asleep, or telling their friends about me. I can’t picture anyone getting butterflies because I said hi to them, or even just smiled at them. I can’t picture someone smiling at the computer screen or their cell phones when we’re talking. I mean like…Why would they even do that? I’m just me. Nothing extraordinary, or special.